The Lucky Titan

Thrive coming out of crisis With Ian Altman

February 17, 2021 Josh Tapp
The Lucky Titan
Thrive coming out of crisis With Ian Altman
Chapters
The Lucky Titan
Thrive coming out of crisis With Ian Altman
Feb 17, 2021
Josh Tapp

Ian started, sold, and grew his prior companies from zero to over one billion dollars in value. He has since spent years helping companies achieve explosive growth based on his research on how clients make decisions. His modern approach has been instrumental in helping companies to thrive when their competitors struggle to survive. 
He’s a co-author of the bestseller, Same Side Selling, now in its second edition. You can read hundreds of his articles on Forbes and Inc. He is recognized as one of the 30 Global Gurus on Sales, and his Same Side Selling Academy is rated one of the top 5 Sales Development Programs globally.

SameSideSellingAcademy.com

Show Notes Transcript

Ian started, sold, and grew his prior companies from zero to over one billion dollars in value. He has since spent years helping companies achieve explosive growth based on his research on how clients make decisions. His modern approach has been instrumental in helping companies to thrive when their competitors struggle to survive. 
He’s a co-author of the bestseller, Same Side Selling, now in its second edition. You can read hundreds of his articles on Forbes and Inc. He is recognized as one of the 30 Global Gurus on Sales, and his Same Side Selling Academy is rated one of the top 5 Sales Development Programs globally.

SameSideSellingAcademy.com

Josh: What is up everybody, Josh Tapp here again and welcome back to the lucky Titan podcast and today we're here with Ian Altman, this guy has an it pretty impressive track record. You know, he's a co-author of the same side selling book they just launched not too long ago, right? 

Ian: second edition. Yeah. 

Josh: Yeah, the second edition, yes. But then he's also helped to build a company to over a billion dollars in valuation and that's, that's billion with a B, right? The Trump way the billions and billions. I need to make that video I said so often on this show; I need to make that a video on here. Anyways, so anyways, he's got a great track record, really excited to have him on here. And we're going to be talking today a lot about scaling your business, through sales and through marketing. Many of you who are doing these high ticket services, which shows most of the people listening to this show, you know that this is a skill that you've got to develop if you want to scale past seven figures so Ian say what's up to everybody. And we'll hop right in. 

Ian: Josh, thanks for having me on and exercising poor judgment relying on me to come in and drop some knowledge here. So set the bar low, that way I can exceed it. 

Josh: Dang, it slipped through? I'm just kidding. Well, Ian, I am excited to have you here to talk about this. Because you as we were talking about in the pre interview, and discussion. Yeah, we were, I really think that even for myself, I'd really love to know how you're helping companies to scale their sales systems in particular, and when they should be looking to scale their systems. So my first question to you along that line is, what's your process? Now what's kind of your system is scaling?

Ian: Well, so so we've got a whole methodology, I don't want to dive into the methodology per se. But instead, let me let me just take a step back on this. And the biggest flaw I see in most organizations, when it comes to a system to scale their business is that they don't have a system at all. So it's like, the founder was really good at creating interest, and getting people to give up their money in exchange for some product or service they had, they go into a certain point, and then they hire a salesperson. And they either say, Oh, this person has a great book of business, they'll do amazingly well. Or they say, well follow me around, and you'll figure it out. And then all of a sudden, what happens is the person isn't good at sales. But you notice that they're dressing like you did, or they're ordering the same thing at lunch, you're like, Oh, so that's what they picked up. So now they're wearing plaid jacket and ordering Caesar salad I don't think it makes a lot of sense. And so what we have to do is kind of take a step back and say, okay, what's our process for? How do we attract clients? That the gap that a lot of people have is then how do we qualify them? So that once we've attracted their interest, how do we qualify so we don't waste time on the wrong ones. And then from there, what, what are the discrete steps we walk people through, that they're going to see that are also in their best interest that helped us reach a conclusion together because the first you have to recognize that everybody you meet with is not going to be a good fit for you. So the goal is not how do I turn every opportunity into a sale? The goal is how do I attract the right people, and then navigate a process efficiently to figure out who's a good fit and who's not?

Josh: Yeah, and I love that methodology, because it's more about saying, Who do I not want to work with and understanding that so you're not trying to beat the dead horse as it were, and finding it finding ways to manipulate into a sale when instead of saying, who are the right people that to get those to get in the room with the right people? It might even mean less sales conversations, but more sales in the long run. 

Ian: Yeah, the idea is that most people are under this, this misconception that sales is a numbers game. And look, if I just bring in enough people, eventually I'll convert these people into sales. So we've all been on the receiving end of horrid, just absolutely disgustingly bad sales and marketing initiatives that are reaching out to you it's the it's the automation on LinkedIn that says, Oh, your profile seems really interesting. I'd love to connect. And I respond, I actually have an automated way of doing this where I type in four characters. And it sends a note that says, hey, thanks for reaching out what inspired your connection. And this is gonna sound crazy, but over 75% of the time, the response I get is no response at all. So and then after a week or two, I'll say, Oh, this is just marketing automation. That's great. That's the problem with automation. So the notion of just creating as many people as you can as opportunities, and then someone will take the time to go through them. You're overlooking what it costs in your time to pursue a bad opportunity. Instead, you want to think about what are the problems that we're really good at solving? What's the mindset of our ideal client? And then how do we basically form a magnet to attract the people who care about those things and repel the people who aren't a good fit.

Josh: You know, what you're explaining is the last three months of our lives in our company. We've, we recently changed our strategy entirely like what we're selling, because we've been kind of fighting to sell this one thing we know is important. But then I had a coach Tell me, he's like, Josh, man, you just sell podcasts. That's like, that's what you guys are good at? And I'm like, Well, I don't know. It's like, I do love podcasting, everything. So I just started asking people who are naturally coming to us. And we were landing clients left and right. What on earth, I just had to like, change one thing, but apparently, it's what they want. And now we love what we do. And it's not a it's not a fight anymore. So I love that I can totally testify of that, because that strategy is so on point with like, the way that you should be scaling a company. So you know, when it when it comes down to the sales process for you, you know, you're talking about attracting the right people, obviously, how, how are you attracting these people? I think that's a big question about surveys as well. 

Ian: So there, there are three different personas in the world of sales, you have the order taker, the salesperson and the subject matter expert, the order taker, is the person who basically is solely a commodity, the client just wants to know how much is it? And when can you deliver it. And if you haven't figured it out already, if that's what you're selling, and you're an order taker, you're probably going to be replaced by Amazon at some point. Because they can deliver that kind of stuff, faster and lower cost than most, most organizations. So now we have the salesperson and the subject matter expert. And the reality is doesn't matter which ones you think you have. But instead, when you're the client, who do you want to deal with the subject matter expert, or the salesperson? Well, we all want to deal with that subject matter expert. So it's about establishing expertise. But too often people set their sights too high. So they're trying to be everything to everybody, instead of focusing very narrowly on the kind of problems they solve. And the metaphor that I like to use is a medical metaphor, which is, don't be don't walk around pitching your treatment, it'd be like, if I said to you, hey, look, I've got I've got this great tennis elbow procedure. Once you come in next Tuesday, I'll set you up for surgery, you'd be like, Get away from me. But instead, what you want to think about in your business is, what are the symptoms that people might be exhibiting that are an indication of a condition that could be serious that you're really good at treating? So for example, if somebody's got a business, and they say, Well, you know, gee, I provide this type of sales, performance coaching, or I provide this type of marketing. That's what you do. But instead, you want to think of the inverse of that, or what I often refer to as an elevator rant. So instead of an elevator pitch that says, Here's 15 seconds of what we do, you want to think about it in terms of what would your ideal client be complaining about that you're good at, fix it. So for example, if it's a digital marketing agency, their ideal client might be sitting around saying, Man, I'm sick and tired of our inferior competitors getting more attention than we are. I'm sick and tired of walking into a meeting with someone we can really help. And they say, I've never heard of you guys. And I'm sick of always trying to figure out a way to stand out compared to the competition. And if you're facing one of those problems, we're really good at solving that. But only about half the people we talked to are a good fit for that. So I don't yet know if we can help you. But if those are things you're facing, I'm happy to learn more to see if we might be able to help. And that concept is something we refer to as the same side pitch and same side selling which is centered around here, the problems we solve so enticed by sharing problems we solve with extraordinary results. I then disarm the notion I'm just there to sell something by acknowledging that not everyone's a good fit for us. And then I trigger a discovery phase to learn more about their situation to see if we can help.

Josh: So the question I have, like from your methodology, because I love that first off, but how do you keep your yourself or your salespeople from just selling the problem? Because like you're saying you're selling a solution to a problem, but we find a lot of times, like you said, They're either selling hey, here's the treatment, or they're just selling, hey, you have a problem, you have a problem, you have a problem, right? Here's the problem. They're not providing a clear solution like, does that make sense? 

Ian: It does so, so the idea is that you need you need to know how to transition from one to the other. But here's the interesting part it's not the salespersons job to convince the client that they have a problem worth solving. It is however, the seller’s job to ask the right questions. So the client convinces you that their problem is worth solving because if they can't, how much time should you spend working on a solution to a problem that they don't think is worth solving. So there's a concept that that we have in same side selling called the same side quadrants, and it's a method for organizing our notes in a meeting see most people when they come out of a meeting with a potential client they say, Oh my god, Josh, I just had the best meeting. It was incredible. Amazing, we were scheduled to talk for just 20 minutes, and the meeting lasted an hour. And oh my god, the two of us, man, we just clicked, we connected. And the meeting went so well that we've already agreed that next week, we set up a time to meet again and that would be a great way to summarize a quality meeting, if it had been set up on match.com. But it's not a great way to evaluate a good business meeting. And so we structured this idea of the same side quadrants. And if you want, I can kind of walk you through what that looks like because it could be helpful for the audience. 

Josh: Yes, absolutely. I think we'd all love to hear that. 

Ian: Okay. So the idea is that you take a blank sheet of paper, draw a vertical line down the center of the page, horizontal line across the center, creating four different quadrants on the page. This is a method for taking notes during our meeting. In the upper left quadrant, we take notes about the issue, it's usually prompted with a question like, hey, what inspired you to meet with us today? And now it's the superficial part that people talk about? Oh, we're hoping to improve our marketing. Oh, we're hoping to improve our sales. Oh, we're hoping to build a new home, like whatever it is. The upper right quadrant is the impact quadrant. So impacted important because in the upper right, that's where you take notes that are the answer to the question of so what happens if you don't solve this? Because if the client says, no big deal, then guess what? They're not spending the money. So they don't care. But if they say, Oh, you know, we'll lose, we'll lose market share will lose our company will lose our lives. Okay? How important is this compared to other things? What's really important? Great, all right, this is my top priority find. In the lower left quadrant, we take notes about the results. Now, here's the interesting thing. Very rarely do sellers ask the following question. Hey, Josh, what does success look like six months from now? What can you and I measure together to know that this was a good investment? But if somebody were to ask you that question, and the other the other person trying to sell to you just ask who needs to sign off on this? Who would you rather deal with? The person who is selling? Who is talking about results? The person who's just talking about the sale? Well, obviously, you want the person who's focused on the results. And so the idea is that, then we focus there. Now, we've all had deals where in the 11th hour, someone's name comes up, you've never heard of before. And they kill the deal, which is the purpose lower right quadrant that we call that we call others impacted. And the others impact is, most people have been taught a horrible system for getting the decision maker involved. And it sounds something like this, it says, So Josh, who's the decision maker? And, and it's like, if you want to find the most adversarial way to ask a question, that would be it. Because it's almost implying, look, Josh, they couldn't possibly interest you. So who does who does make this decision? So instead, what we want to do is we say, So Josh, who else would have an opinion about the impact of the organization who else would have a strong opinion about the results. And these quadrants now give us clarity about whether or not this is a real opportunity or not. So all you have to do is look really at two quadrants at the end of this, you look at what's the impact that they're that they're having right now by not solving the problem, the upper right quadrant, and you look at the lower left quadrant of results and say, Well, so what are they going to measure going forward, and the delta between those two happens to be the value of whatever it is you're offering?

Josh: See, and that's, that's so cool, because you're kind of coming at it with like, like a prescription method, where it say, hey, let's talk about me, if a doctor were to do that for you, right, they're not going to come in and talk about and just continuing with your analogy about the technology they're going to use to do it. Right they're saying, you know, like, why are you in here today? Your your knees hurting? Okay? That's the issue. Question. Impact question is what happens if you don't solve this problem? Like, you know, what, what do you think's going to happen? If you don't take care of your knee? Right? You're never gonna be able to walk again, or play. 

Ian: And keep in mind, what they're gonna say is, I can't play tennis, I can't play with my kids. It hurts when I walk them down the stairs, it wakes me up at night. Okay? And guess what if the person says, no big deal, I don't really notice it, guess what, they're not having the procedure. 

Josh: Right, That's amazing. But then your result is like, while you're, you know, if you're not going to be able to, to walk, play with your kids, or play sports or what have you. This is where you're going to be. But if you do this surgery, this is where you know, you're going to be able to. 

Ian: You'll be pain free for months from now. And I'll be able to do all the activities I wanted to do great,  Who else who else is impacted by this? Well, my wife thinks I should also do this, or, you know, my general doctor thinks I should do this and that great. And now you know, all the players need to be involved. You know, what's important to them. You have total clarity. And instead what most people do is they say, oh, you're interested in stuff. Yeah, you want a demo? Right? We can show you a demo. Coz because here's what I'm going to do in the demo. I'm going to spend 38 to 57 minutes somewhere in that range. And I'm going to show you a whole bunch of features. And here's the best part. I don't know which features you care about. But I'm going to show you all of them. And I'm going to hope that I'm going to show you some of the ones that you're going to care about. It's like it's a crazy approach that people take, but it's most often what happens or it's, hey, we're going to show them exactly we're going to do for them. The client says, well, thanks; we don't have to pay for it. We just got all this free consulting awesome, see you later. And they move on. And that's what happens.

Josh: That's so funny. I mean, I when people say demo call I like, how about we just talk about something else? And then and then I'll tell you if I want to give you my money, because oh, man, we've all been through it. It's the 57 minutes network Marketing pitch, right? And then for last three minutes, like you want to buy it, right. I really I got tons of benefits thrown in my face. 

Ian: It was interesting in my, my prior business, there was a there was a software, we had a software company or a software business in software product that we developed and sold, but we also resold some other products and so we were the number one seller in the world for this one software platform and so have an annual meeting of other partners and people were complaining to the CEO, this company was doing a QA. And they said, well, the problem is that the product is so complex, it takes more than half a day just to demo the product and so he says, really, and taking the taking the chance, he says so Ian how long do you guys spend on the demo? And of course, everyone knew, because if you're the top guy, everyone knows, okay, that's the guy who's selling more than anybody else and I said, our demos are usually about 20 minutes and there's a bunch of people who are, you know, rumbling that it was BS in the back? And he said, so. So what do you mean, how are you able to do it and 20 minutes, I said, well, we just show them the two or three things that are most important to them. In deciding whether or not that's the right fit for them. And some guy in the back says, well, well, but how do you know that? I said, Oh, we ask. So, so beforehand, we say so what are the two or three things that you need to see, at the end of this process to know whether or not this was a good decision for you? What are the what are the things that you're most worried about whether or not I can do that? And then just show those two or three things? And guess what, if one of your top features or capabilities isn't one of those three, you can say some people also want to see this other thing, would that be relevant? And if they say no, then don't show it to them because they don't care. Too often what happens is in the sales and marketing world, we share information that we think is a positive. That is actually a detractor to the client. So I run people I've done research with over 10,000 executives, they make unapproved decisions. And I run through this scenario where I put people in groups and I say, okay, you're, you're the senior executive, someone comes to you, they want to buy this thing called a desert. And it costs $20,000 takes 45 days to implement, it requires no resources whatsoever on your part, and they give you a 10 year guarantee. So what are the things that are that, that marketers would, would perceive to be most attractive? Well, there's a 10 year guarantee, and there's no resources on your part. And then every single discussion people say, Yeah, I don't trust this no resources part and the 10 year guarantee, how long have they been in business? Well, no one expects a 10 year guarantee. But now that you throw it out there, that's all people are focused on. And it's just actually a red herring that confuses people. And that's what happens is So, across this research, what we found is that there are three questions that people ask in that in that exercise over 10,000 people, there are three questions and unfortunately, we're out of time, right? Explain what they are not all so, so the three questions that people asked me, so I asked people to first come up with their first, their top five questions, they narrowed down to three questions and these are the three questions they asked. So the first question they ask is, what problem does this solve? So what problem or problems does this all for us? The second question they ask is, why do I need it? And the third question is, what's the likely outcome or result? So kind of the ROI type question but there's a little bit of a twist in that and then it's not what's the result? It's what's the likely outcome or result? So the first one what problem does it solve? Pretty straightforward the second one, why do we need it is what happens if I don't solve this problem? What is it costing me to not solve this? And the third one is the likely result or outcome is I want to hear from other people like me, and what kind of results they've gotten because I don't trust the salesperson I want to know what other people just like me, which is why we're so influenced by reviews, and ratings and things like that. Now there's a distant fourth and all this, which is, what are the alternatives and the reason why it's a distant fourth is imagine you're trying to make an important decision you have a vendor, you're in total sync with them about what problem you're trying to solve, and why you need their help this is also the vendor you feel has the highest likelihood of delivering the best results for your organization that's your vendor. So if you answer those first three questions really well, that fourth one becomes implied. And if the way you're selling today is not aligned with those questions, you're actually lengthening rather than shortening the sales cycle.

Josh: Yeah, that is that is awesome. I love that last line you said too, because it could definitely lengthen your the sales cycle? 

Ian: Well, and let me let me let me give you something else. So those quadrants that we talked about let's just let's just see. So here, here are the questions, what problems to solve? Why do we need it? What's the likely outcome or result? So what's the upper left quadrant? Its issue or what problem are they trying to solve? The upper right quadrant is impact importance, which corresponds to why do I need it? Meaning what's the financial impact of not doing that? The lower left quadrant is results which CT which correlates to what a success look like, what's the likely result or outcome, and then all we're doing lower right quadrant is making sure we understand who else needs to be included and so the quadrant is directly connected to this research I've done across over 10,000 executives, they make and improve decisions and I stopped counting once across 10,000. You know, it could be 20, or 30, or 50,000. By now it's just, I was like, meticulously counting like the first 500 it was like I knew exactly the number of first 1000 once across 10,000. I'm like I don't know, it's a lot of people.

Josh: See, and I love that because that I mean, no matter what business you're in, or what industry you're in, I mean, those three questions are? I mean, I'm thinking about my sales cycle, am I Oh, yeah, I heard that one heard that one or that one. It relates to every type of sales conversation or sales interaction you'll have. I feel like this is literally the conversation I have with my wife every time we're trying to choose a restaurant to go to.

Ian: Well, you know what, and sometimes, sometimes in personal situations, we don't ask, you know, it's like, the car I drive. What problem does it solve? I don't really have a problem. Why did I need it? I didn't need it. My other car was fine. What's the result I'm looking for? Well, I wanted it right. And if you're in a position financially, you can afford that you can make baseless ridiculous decisions. But in a business context, it usually doesn't work that way. And especially as the dollar amounts increase, and especially in this post COVID world, all of a sudden, people are being very judicious about how they're spending their money. And they don't want to spend on things that aren't going to generate return. And they have a lot of problems that they need to solve. And they want to focus on things that are going to deliver a solution to those problems, because they don't have the luxury of doing stuff that would be nice to do when there's stuff that they have to do.

Josh: Yeah. So I have a question. I want to ask you about this, because I love the four, the four quadrants, I love the three questions I hope everybody will take those and apply those directly into what they're doing I know I will and I'm going to go buy your book, just so you know, you sold me. You're good at what you do. I'll buy your book. So I want to ask you this, though. I mean, you've had so you've worked with so many sales people, you probably get pitched left and right. And what was a problem that you had in your company that was solved effectively by somebody and they sold you using a similar model as this?

Ian: I don't know how much of it is using a similar model. So it might it the interesting thing is that in my prior business, I would add I you know, in my mind, I didn't I didn't focus on these questions. So as I was doing this research, I was fascinated by it. And I reached out to people, my prior business, keep in mind, we had offices in 12 countries, pretty good sized organization. And so I reached out to some of my direct reports and said, Yeah, I mean, back, we were running that business. There wasn't like the same questions I would ask over and over like when we were going to make a sizable investment. And each person laughed, like, yeah, the first thing you would ask is, so what problems to solve, or why do we need it? And I'd say, Okay, what else? And then you would say, so if we got this thing? What would it look like six months from now? And I was like, really? And so I wasn't even conscious of it. And I think in many cases, other people aren't either. So it's it mostly comes down to the people who catch your attention are the people who describe a problem where you say, yeah, that's me and unfortunately, what most people do is instead they lead with, here's my stuff. So I get emails all the time that says, oh, we'd love I'd love to schedule an appointment with you to introduce our company to you. Oh, well, that's the best offer I've had all day. I'm still gonna pass because I have no desire to have you pitch me on something or they say, Oh, well, we offer this service. And we're cheaper than anybody else great, because I wasn't looking for a good solution. I just wanted something that was cheap. I mean, it's just, you know, the problem with a lot of businesses is what they don't realize is that they complain that the client is focused on price. But the seller is the one who brings up price, the seller says, Oh, I can save you money. And the client says, Well, how much because I'm not taking a risk if it's only five or 10%. But if it's half, maybe I'll take the risk. But instead, if they said, Look, people reach out to us because they're experiencing this challenge, this challenge or that challenge. And we've had a great track record for the people who are the right fit for that. I don't yet know whether or not you're the right fit. But if those are things are important, I'm happy to learn more to see if we might be able to help, then you get people who are interested in that. And the other big thing that I think a lot of businesses run into right now is getting commoditized. So people struggle, because they sound the same as everybody else and there are ways that you can work intelligently so that your client can see the difference between what you do and what other people do.

Josh: Yeah, and I mean, that's a really good point. I mean, I really think that 90% of the problem that all of us will have is, is you know, we just assume it's the customers fault, right? I Well, they just they're they're not, you know, they're having issues with this. But I love the way you said that, because we had that problem not too long ago. And yes, they were talking about price too much. If we just stopped talking about price, they might be like, Oh, yeah, let's do it. Right so I love that. 

Ian: The quote that gets attributed to me quite often, is price matters most when the seller believes price matters most. And so price, and for that matter, all objections matter most when the seller believes they matter most. And people aren't even conscious of how often that happens. And it's something that I think most organizations don't even realize, look, are we are we speaking from the same side as our clients? Are we in an adversarial position, we actually have on the same site selling and samesideselling.com, they both end up in the same place. We have this assessment up there that people can take that basically ask you a series of questions,  that gives you a sense of where you fit on that scale, it doesn't subject you to a life of spam or anything like that. It's just more research that we get on how people position themselves compared to the rest of the world. 

Josh: Well, so he just totally teased that, but we're gonna I'm gonna hard pitch it to you guys. Because I think that'd be a great place for anybody who's in a sales position, which pretty much anybody watch, listen to this show is in that position? Go check that out. So it's, it's samesidesellingacademy.com? Correct? 

Ian: Correct. 

Josh: Awesome. So make sure you check that out? And then also, where can we get your book? 

Ian: Amazon or just about any place books are sold? I mean, I think nowadays in the, in the days of COVID, and maybe people getting on Barnes and noble.com, or whatever, um, you can get it there  if you go to samesidesellingacademy.com. I'm sure there's a way that we offer it there, too. You would think I would know that. But you know that. And we have the we have these, the the quadrants I described. So the quadrants I've been, I've been sharing with people for a long time. And people kept saying, Well, can I buy like something that already has the quadrants laid out with the questions, and I'm like, it's just drawing a couple lines on a piece of paper. And people love them. So we actually have the same side quadrant journals also. So people go on, oftentimes you can, you can buy it for less from us than from Amazon. But if people are more comfortable, Amazon, it's whatever works for people is totally fine. If you understand the economics of books and journals and things, unless you sell millions of copies, financial, it's not a big deal. I just want to make it so that people have tools that can help them do their business.

Josh:  So make sure you go check those out, get the book, get the, the diagrams that you could just draw, I literally drew it while we were talking. So I mean, if you're not lazy, I'm sorry. 

Ian: But I will, I will I will piece out one part, which is the quadrant journal has, in the inside front cover suggested questions you can use for the quadrants that are on the left side. So,  meaning the issue and the results in the back there's, there's there are suggested questions for the right side, and then watermarked on the pages or other little questions like that will come up in those times that people often say, yeah, that was really helpful to have that there. So and it's like, it's a it's a nice quality product. It's just, I also feel like, Look, if you're on a budget, just draw two lines on a sheet of paper.

Josh: If you're on that much of a budget, you might need some help, but you can't afford buying a book. So, um, one final question I want to ask you though, yeah, before we hop off, you know, and so everybody makes sure you go check out that link and get the book and everything but, you know, we've covered a lot of really good action steps for people. So don't want to I don't want to overdo people but I want to say, Okay, if you had one final parting piece of guidance to give them saying, This is like the one thing you hope they take away from the interview what would that be?

Ian: they really need to understand, in no uncertain terms, what the problems are they solve for their clients. Very often when I ask people, someone will say to me, Oh, do you know anybody I can meet, I'm really trying to grow my business, I'll say, Well, what are the two or three problems that you're really good at solving? And the answer they give me has nothing to do with their clients problems? The answer they give me is, well, we sell this and we sell this and we sell that. And in essence, what I'm asking them is, why would somebody, excuse me? Why would somebody need that? Why would they need that product or service and when you can articulate that, then you can establish your expertise around those topics, you're going to attract people like a magnet with those topics and so that's the single biggest thing, the second part, because you just asked for one, but I want to over deliver. So um, the, the second, the second part is, don't underestimate the value of having a structured process and a system because especially nowadays, if everyone's kind of doing their own thing, you're likely to get inconsistent results if you have everybody following a consistent process and it usually comes down to having consistent process, having individual plays or a playbook to deal with situations that will come up and then some level of coaching and mentoring, then you've got a framework, you can actually build a really successful organization and let's face it, the top athletes in the world, the top musicians in the world, they practice and they have structure around what they do aales and business growth, same thing.